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Bionic Tech => All Things Off Road - Tires, Suspension & More => Topic started by: Btwilkjr on January 19, 2013, 03:16:00 PM



Title: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Btwilkjr on January 19, 2013, 03:16:00 PM
Ok, I'm in need of new tires for the 02 Ram, who knows a good American made tire, that wears somewhat decent. I only run the tires about six to seven months a year as I switch over to different rims and tires for winter time. Now I'm looking for something other than BF Goodrich. I want to go with Cooper Discoverer STT's again, however my problem not wanting to go with them again isn't because they are a bad tire, because they are great and wear fantastic, but it's because I'm having a hard time getting beyond the whole locking their employees out, and the greed they've shown towards them. So I'm again looking for a American bade mud terrain tire, and also anybody have info on the whole lockout issue other than what was printed in the media?


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: donram360 on January 19, 2013, 03:25:55 PM
Michelin LTX A/T  had a couple sets and love em


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: northwest_5.9 on January 20, 2013, 03:04:04 PM
i have the Toyo mud tires, and it says right on the side MADE IN THE USA... 10ply "E" load rating. these are on my 03 ram. the size i have on there is a 295 70 r17 .. hope this helps


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: donram360 on January 20, 2013, 04:17:46 PM
TOYO made in the USA???? Thats a surprise.... I have explicitly avoilded them, Yokohama and Toyo never been the least bit interested in them, the same way I wouldn't buy a Toyota or honduh if my life depended on it


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: northwest_5.9 on January 20, 2013, 05:53:47 PM
i get ya a pix soon as i can


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Btwilkjr on January 20, 2013, 07:32:34 PM
Toyo? Wow I'm surprised, but not totally because I read somewhere that Kuhmo and Hankook both have tires made in America. I like the Michelins on my wife's town and country, but haven't had good luck with them on trucks, seems they wear forever up front but once they start wearing they go fast.  I'm really surprised at how much Cooper owns, besides Mastercraft and Dean, but the whole Interco line up. I think they have Mikey Thompson even.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: magnumman on January 20, 2013, 07:47:21 PM
I have avoided Cooper tires also because of the lockout, but the Cooper tire Lockout is over and they settled with the USW finally but for less than the workers deserved IMHO considering Coopers profits and the quality issues they had while the workers were locked out.

But now its over and their back to work so My next tires will likely be Cooper to support the workers that went without a paycheck for 11 months.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: donram360 on January 21, 2013, 04:45:58 AM
I have avoided Cooper tires also because of the lockout, but the Cooper tire Lockout is over and they settled with the USW finally but for less than the workers deserved IMHO considering Coopers profits and the quality issues they had while the workers were locked out.

But now its over and their back to work so My next tires will likely be Cooper to support the workers that went without a paycheck for 11 months.
yikes when was this all goin on so I can avoid tires made then? I know how to read the manuf. dates.  if they weren't making good tires during that time then I don't want them , union made or not...

I had coopers on my 94 Dakota (shoulda pulled em and swapped them onto the 93 being they were near new and i wound up selling the truck woulda saved me the cost of a 2nd set of tires)
I bought a set of the same  model Coopers, 1 size bigger, from a note on the "board" in a restaurant out your way (Rays in Essex)   they had 100 mi on them the guy took them off his truck because something  expensive broke on it and he got rid of the truck...
my last few sets have actually come this way or via CL... I picked up a set of "old" Coopers on rims that are on my Wrangler now, dirt cheap... theyd been in a guys basement a few years... but when I worked in a tire shop where I had my choice of  brand or model of tires, I always bought michelins  and if money was no object I wouldn't buy anything but.   

I have found that the Michelins are the only tires I can get "rated" miles from... Kellys are awful  fantastic for about 1/3 of rated miles and "shot," by 60% of what they are rated at... I have tried 3 sets of them same results... you couldnt give me a goodyear except maybe on my trailer that I don't use a whole helluva lot I have never had a good Goodyear. Seems most of teh vehicles I have owned have come to me with goodyears on them, from the PO


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Btwilkjr on January 21, 2013, 04:30:44 PM
Cooper had their lockout about a year ago. They settled and went back to work in February. I do like your point of view Chris, about supporting the American worker, even if that means making greedy corporate rich in the process. I have always had great luck with Coopers, I'm running STT's right now and they are fantastic, and better priced then the big name "4x4" tire brands you see in magazines (most of  which Cooper owns any ways). Now I will say I won't buy Coopers off brands or private labels as the great deal sure didn't matter when they wear in half the time. Which is why I agree on how much I don't care for Goodyear either as their name says that's all your going to get out of them a "good year". I am really impressed with the Michelins on my wife's new Town and Country, but I have like I said before, they wear really good at first then once they get past that "first" layer they go fast. Plus I don't know what kind of aggresive Mud tires they have.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: magnumman on January 21, 2013, 06:48:07 PM
Cooper had their lockout about a year ago. They settled and went back to work in February. I do like your point of view Chris, about supporting the American worker, even if that means making greedy corporate rich in the process.

I feel you, Btwilkjr.

Im in the same situation, I work for rich greedy entity. While they wont lock me out, they sure can outlast its workers in their right to strike. Quality and customer service always suffers and thats what the workers care about but the greedy seem to act like its not important when their workers are pissed. But if no one buys from the  greedy corporation that employs American workers they will never have a leg to stand on.

Don,
Your tires should be OK if they were not made between March 2011 and April 2012. The lockout was over in February as Btwilkjr said. Usually give 3 months for left over stock.



Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: donram360 on January 22, 2013, 03:43:14 AM
well I got em now and I ain't takin them off as i have already spent the money on them  I might as well get whatever I'm gonna get out of them but I'll hafta keep an eye out in the future the next time I need tires... just wish id have known about this before I got them 

as far as Michelins go I havent had that 'wear quick after they are thru that 1st layer" issue; but  the ones I like are the LTX  A/T   The LTX M/S is a very long wearing all season tire (much more of a highway tread though)   the only one I know of theirs to avoid is the LTX A/S  now for some reason those don't last as long and don't have much traction from the get go even on wet pavement... these were OE on some of our trucks in the late 90s and early '00s...

In case you dont know, michelin owns both BFG and Uniroyal  and some of the newest versions are identical  to each other except the name on the sidewall; 


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Btwilkjr on January 22, 2013, 05:13:01 PM
Yeah, nothing we do can take the greed out of corporations. I'm on the management side but our company is none union only because we have the highest wages in our industry in our region and believe in rewarding for your work and effort. Plus I always hated the last hired first fired. Though we put emfaces on profit we also know happy employees equal better work ethic and quality which equals more profit. So with that what Cooper dud was straight greed. However I would rather support the workers and their families, and just have ill will thoughts of the higher ups.
Don I like BFG's a lot, but man the price tag is of premium, don't get me wrong, their worth the money to a degree. I've ran Discoverer STT's for almost 40,000 miles so I'm really impressed with that for a mud tread. I've never seen or heard of that from a BFG, if I'm wrong please by all means let me know. The only other issue with cost is this, I run 37" tires and it's $325 each for Coopers vs over $400 for BFG's the difference is enough to buy the spare tire in the end. N


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: donram360 on January 22, 2013, 06:33:10 PM
wow 37s  those aint gonna be cheap no matter who's tires you buy..
What hadn't you heard of from BFG; the mileage you claim or that they are part of Michelin?

and remember; all BFG's aren't the same tire the same can be said no matter what brand you pick..
I had heard the STTs were good tires havent had the chance to try that particular Cooper;  they have another one out now... ST3 or something like that and it is supposed to be pretty awesome.   

I laugh about "1 GoodYear" out of their tires.  there has been 1 good set from them that I forgot about (certainly NOT a truck tire) they were the Regatta's that I had on my 85 Diplomat.  We sold them as the "Weatherhandler" when I worked at Sears, same tire, just a different name stamped in the sidewalls...  and I caught them on sale then add my 10% employee discount and I got a real good deal on them at the time.
They make like a dozen different "Wranglers" alone.  I have had at least 3 varieties and they all sucked, from new. 
the HT, the RT/S  and the original Wrangler.. all sucked.
They have a new "DURA-something" that is suppoosed to be a real good tire but I am afraid to try them as bad of service as I have had out of anything they sell as a "truck" tire. Even high mileage (claimed) highway tread, run ON the highway..
I remember when the Eagles came out, the cop cars had the GT+4s , the Mustangs got regular Eagle GTs  and they had an Eagle ST.. Never ran any personally but if my buddy with the 71 Roadrunner that had a 440-6 pack and a 4 speed matters, he claimed the STs were the best even though "back then" the STs were the cheapest of the Eagle tires...


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: magnumman on January 22, 2013, 06:53:57 PM
Btwilkjr, sounds like your company is one that doesnt need a need union, rewarded employees with good wages have no reason to unionize.  Its rare that companies treat workers like people and  pay them what their worth, the ones that do should be proud and my wishful thinking would hope other companies would follow suit.  A good measurement in my book is,,,,,, if the employees are making enough to afford the products/services they produce always helps the economy.

Don,   I agree.  The Michelin ATX A/S were the worst tire I have ever owned besides Falken and Perelli.  The A/S was stock on my Ram when I bought it new and they barely lasted the warranty of the truck.  They rounded off the sides early and were due for replacement at about 26,000 miles, the dealer said they would replace them under warranty but it was with the same tire.  I didn't want those tire back on my truck so thats when I went to pirelli and falken which was a mistake.
Then I bought Continental and the front have lasted forever but the grip was poor in the rear and my lead foot wore through the rear tires in 30,000 miles. The fronts are still on there with 47,000 miles on them with a ton of tread left.  I replaced the rear tires with BFG and the grip and life is outstanding considering I have a LSD.  


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Btwilkjr on January 23, 2013, 05:13:27 PM
Chris, we actually have to be the way we are with employees because there's no skilled workforce any more. Tool makers are drying up and retiring, it's a great trade that you can (if you really work) make a great living. Thing is the younger generation coming up wants no part of a shop, or hard work or apprenticeships it having to work your way up, they want top dollar from day one to do nothing!  I'm only 34 but worked my way up to become general manager, and minor owner. That's not a bragging statement just the fact rmi knew what I wanted and worked HARD for it. The owners and I joke that in ten years we won't have any help and the three of us will be on the floor running machines.
Now about tires, a thought/question, Is Cooper an OEM for anybody? Because it seems once a big name like Goodyear or Michelin becomes a OEM supplier their quality goes down hill, mostly due to cost reduction pressure to keep the big contract. Lately it seems Michelins are on everything, my wives new Toen and Country has them, even my company car an Audi Q3 has them. So it makes me start to look at tires that aren't on OE. I know as Don said they all have different grades. A guy at church is a manager of a tire store and said each brand has at least three quality levels or as Cooper does different brands for quality levels( and no he doesn't sell Coopers or I'd be getting a huge discount). What's really getting me is the contestant price increases, just as gas prices it's the old it's because of global demand garbage, so this global economy is only going to hurt the working class even more, as we're making less every year and prices go up every year. Man if we don't all become rich well guess where we'll be......


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: magnumman on January 23, 2013, 07:44:53 PM
Well said Btwilkjr!!!!

I don't think Cooper is stock on any US assembled car.  By bud bought a ford fusion 09 and expedition 2012 new and both came from the dealer with pirelli. Dodge for the past 11 years at least have liked Michelin. And I dont know many people with new chevy's anymore, even the company I work for quit buying chevy's because of the recalls or TSB's keeping the fleet mechanics to busy and backed up. Plus if a truck is down where I work the techs have nothing drive, so they get paid for no productive work, thats why the chevy's are being removed from our fleet. Im not sure who the foreign named US assembled cars/trucks are using.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Trav1s on February 11, 2013, 05:29:05 AM
Cooper is not OEM but does lots of private brand work for retailers like Sears, Pep Boys, and NTB.  They also have tires that are only available at big box stores like NTB.  The Discoverer LSX (I think that is the right name) that were on my WJ when it picked it up were only available at NTB.  Unfortunately the very thing that made American industry great will also be its demise.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: donram360 on February 12, 2013, 05:59:28 AM
Chris, we actually have to be the way we are with employees because there's no skilled workforce any more. Tool makers are drying up and retiring, it's a great trade that you can (if you really work) make a great living. Thing is the younger generation coming up wants no part of a shop, or hard work or apprenticeships it having to work your way up, they want top dollar from day one to do nothing!  I'm only 34 but worked my way up to become general manager, and minor owner. That's not a bragging statement just the fact rmi knew what I wanted and worked HARD for it. The owners and I joke that in ten years we won't have any help and the three of us will be on the floor running machines.

My son is 19 and this is what he wants to get into he does CNC now and is bored with being a "button pusher"
He's in the community college right now taking all the welding he can plus, lubricants, rigging and such he already has taken all the machine tool they offer;  Like me he is quickly getting tired of being referred to "employment agencies" rather than gbeing able to talk to anyone at the companies, directly.

On your comments about global demand; I am fed up and tired of that excuse for the reasons prices are doing as they are; if China is using more then they should be paying for what they use, not us.  I do not understand why China or any other country's usage of whatever makes our price increase; are we paying for ours and theirs too, with them getting whatever they want for free at our expense? 
on the flip side you know what a volume discount is; if they blame price increases here in the States on "global" demand that is backwards. more people using a product, they make more, the average cost of production per unit goes down/ so should the cost, at our end.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Btwilkjr on February 13, 2013, 04:51:08 PM
Don, make sure he takes up anything that's precision welding. We have laser welders that you weld through a micro scope to see your bead. I've seen them lay beads at .010". Why I say this is it opens him up to more than tool and die it opens up Aerospace, medical, electronics and a lot more that need precision welds. He should still take tool and die because in a few years the younger guys can right their own meal ticket, and the more capabilities and more diversified they are, the better chance at making a good living they have. Because unfortunately we are at a point where we need more out of people than before. Which is a reason we had to invest in robotics on machines so one guy one shift can get 24/7 out of 3 machines.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: magnumman on February 13, 2013, 07:22:11 PM
Don, make sure he takes up anything that's precision welding. We have laser welders that you weld through a micro scope to see your bead. I've seen them lay beads at .010". Why I say this is it opens him up to more than tool and die it opens up Aerospace, medical, electronics and a lot more that need precision welds. He should still take tool and die because in a few years the younger guys can right their own meal ticket, and the more capabilities and more diversified they are, the better chance at making a good living they have. Because unfortunately we are at a point where we need more out of people than before. Which is a reason we had to invest in robotics on machines so one guy one shift can get 24/7 out of 3 machines.

Good advice above!  Precision welding skills can be used in many job types and employers are dying for them. I know the local IBEW and Pipefitter Unions have people unemployed right now because the only demand jobs they got are welding jobs and most don't know how to weld or know how to run advanced welding equipment. Plus the apprentiships are a year shorter for incoming apprentices that have the schooling or experience of precision welding.

Plus the precision welding gives your Son the opportunity to start his own business, the demand for that skill right now is booming.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: jee61245 on May 19, 2013, 06:25:34 PM
Hey all
I am new to this forum so first of all my name is Roger
I have a 97 wrangler TJ and a 90 wrangler YJ and an 84 Dodge Powerwagon or Power Ram Which ever you prefer. anyway I have BF Goodrich onthe powerwagon and on the 97 wrangler TJ and Cooper Discoverer ATRs on the 90 Wrangler YJ . All seem to be excellent tires but I beleive the Coopers are a little bit better. especially for wear and ride.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: magnumman on May 19, 2013, 07:22:46 PM
Welcome to the site Roger!



Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: donram360 on September 09, 2013, 12:24:31 PM
I have been seeing a lot more kuhmo's as OE lately.... the prison has ~6 new Caravans and that's what they have. YUCK!


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Richie on September 09, 2013, 02:36:14 PM
My journey had kuhmo and they were junk IMHO.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Btwilkjr on September 09, 2013, 03:24:25 PM
Well I forgot Anoyt this thread. I ended up as hard as it is to believe going with Hankook Dynapro ATM's on my winter rims, and the Dynapro MT's on my summer rims. I've read nothing but great reviews, I know they aren't American made and trust me that was difficult to come to grips with. Problem is its becoming impossible to find tires made in the U.S.A.  And after the poor quality of the last few sets of Coopers plus the lock out issue, I'm willing to give these Hankooks a chance. Plus to be really upfront on this, the mechanic that attends church sells them at his garage and I got the ATM's in a 325/80/17 (37-13.5-17) for $1,100 out the door and the MT's in 37x13.50x17 for $1,200 put the door. So seeing I was spending over $1600 for Coopers, that was also a factor.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: northwest_5.9 on September 10, 2013, 05:12:31 PM
what were the toyo's?


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: magnumman on September 10, 2013, 06:52:40 PM
what were the toyo's?

I believe toyo's are both made in USA and japan. The common driver tires I think are USA and I believe the high end stuff is still japan.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Btwilkjr on September 11, 2013, 11:33:21 AM
Toyo's were more than the Coopers, though I found blemishes a little cheaper, but still not as cheap the Hankooks. The Toyo's were made in China at least the MT's I was looking at. Another thing I've kept hearing about Toyo's are they have awesome traction but are a softer compound and they wear fast. I was looking for something that didn't wear as quick this time around as it's starting to get expensive having to buy two sets every couple of years.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: northwest_5.9 on September 11, 2013, 05:43:36 PM
my toyos m/t's are made in the usa, or so it says.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: magnumman on September 11, 2013, 06:34:42 PM
my toyos m/t's are made in the usa, or so it says.

FYI to everyone. 

In order for a product to get permission by law to print the "made in USA" label, the product must contain atleast 70% USA sourced parts/ingredients and that content must be assembled/manufactured in the USA.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: Btwilkjr on September 12, 2013, 12:26:06 PM
That's correct, there's even laws stating that it can only say assembled in the U.S.A. If it has a higher percentage of foreign materials. What's really sad is that the foreign automakers are more American Made then the Domestic big three!  Also I laugh that some of the cheaper brand tires are American made yet like Chris said the higher end stuff is foreign made. I could find off beat or name brand tires made in America all day long of I was running 35" tires but as soon as I went to 37" those options gave dried up.


Title: Re: Mud Terrain Tires
Post by: B1llyw on November 20, 2018, 02:15:48 AM
Classic thread of the day!