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Bionic Tech => 3.9/5.2/5.9 => Topic started by: donram360 on November 13, 2016, 05:34:44 PM



Title: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 13, 2016, 05:34:44 PM
whew... what a relief...
started right up like a truck that hasn't been sitting more than a day.... not even a lifter tick, either. (been sitting about 5 months)
When it 1st  started though, it barely wanted to run and would not rev over ~500 rpm.... went out and turned the distributor about 15-20* and that made the difference...ran smooth and revved fine. But even then,  once I had it warmed up and went to set the sync, I was at -21 while the parameter on the other screen said "Current sync OK, but " I sure don't think that -21 was "OK".....

I have been dibbling and dabbling at reassembly, since Friday when I got home with the EQ heads and have been working "scared and paranoid" on it, ever since I rotated it with the timing chain lined up all screwy, and bent 4 pushrods and all 8 exh valves... can't afford any more screw ups.... that one had to be right up there with my worst ever.....

I still have the original engine sitting on the ground in the garage, the engine that I rebuilt was one that I picked up on CL...
I pulled one head from the old engine and wow, cannot believe minimal ridge and original  cross hatch still visible with 258,470 miles...
oil pressure was starting to bounce around and at the end, my main bearings got noisey especially at startup.  that one may find its way into either my Wrangler or my Volare eventually after I go thru that one..... my kid is eyeballing it for one of his old trucks....

I cannot put a price as far as how much this cost me to do, between parts already on hand from past buys and horse trades,  plus reciepts lost and eaten by the puppy,  plus all the extra "might as wells" along the way.... these  included a trans overhaul while I had the truck apart, new Walker SS muffler and Magnaflow cat (I had been getting some cat efficiency codes for the last couple of years that I had to "band aid", even with new O2s when those started)  both new O2 sensors (again) , sent the starter and alternator out to the starter shop "just because" and more. and 1 more "might as well", when I found that the heads would have to come back off, instead of fixing them (I have the parts on hand to have done so, even!)  I went out and bought a pair of fully assembled EQ heads.... all I know is that by doing everything except the machine work myself it was a he11uva lot less costly than taking it in to "have" it done....

I'm glad that I went thru the trans, saw some chunks out of the rear band and a few of the clutches, would not have been long before it would have died....

For now everything is bone stock, have a few minor bolt on mods in the works once I am thru with break in.... I think it is quieter than at any time since I bought it, at present.



Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on November 13, 2016, 06:33:16 PM
Im happy to hear your happy with the final product!


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 14, 2016, 01:56:10 AM
Im happy to hear your happy with the final product!
can't say it's "final" yet...... always something to do....


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: chris on November 14, 2016, 04:22:52 PM
What kind of scan tool were you using/would you recommend for setting the fuel sync. When I rebuilt mine I just eyeballed everything and turn the distributor until it started and would run fine. I'm sure it could use some tweaking though.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on November 14, 2016, 05:21:17 PM
What kind of scan tool were you using/would you recommend for setting the fuel sync. When I rebuilt mine I just eyeballed everything and turn the distributor until it started and would run fine. I'm sure it could use some tweaking though.

A Used Snap-on MT2500 is the best one.  There is many off brands you can get also, just make sure it has all the keys and has the update to cover your year.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 14, 2016, 05:24:20 PM
I have a "red brick" Snap on one. MT 2500, I think.  I know that the OTC Genisys will do it, as that is what we have at work, and I have had to use it to do that job a few times there.

I also know how expensive that Snap on scanner was in its day and the yearly updates to keep up with the new models were pretty salty as well.  It was a scanner that would "never" go out of date, but it has/ it can only be updated to be "current" until 2008 or 2009 at the newest. Now a days they can be had cheap.  I paid $3K+ for mine back in 2003,  something went wrong with it, the thumb wheel will scroll one way but is dead the other/  I bought a replacement at an auction over this past summer for $35, I didnt care what cables and cartridges came with it, I just wanted the "brick" itself.

I would like to get a Modis (I think that is their current machine) but it is still in the "too lofty for how much I'd use it" range. The good thing is that much of the hardware that fit the old red brick will work with these.
Back when the "red brick" was"the $#!T" When you would buy a brand new one, "newest and most up to date" was only current for a then 2 year old car, when I bought mine in 2003 the newest available at that time, was data relating to 2001 model year.
notice what I said above about "eyeballing" it where the engine sounded pretty good.... I was still at a minus-21. so close enough is not good enough. I think they (Mopar) give you an acceptable range of+/- 4.  

one thing about the OTC scanner vs the red brick;   with the brick, the command for "set sync" pretty easy to find, where as I had to do a bit more digging to find the command to do this within the OTC's program..... the OTC sees more geared toward GM, wile the Snap on seems easier for me to run tests on Mopar and Ford products.  imports? I won't touch, and wish I could find the red button to make them all disappear from US roads "poof"


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: chris on November 15, 2016, 02:58:46 PM
So I seen this one on ebay. It has a cartridge that covers my year but then I see 3 keys pictured with it. What are the keys and how do I know if it will work with my durango?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SNAP-ON-MT2500-DIAGNOSTIC-SCANNER-W-ACCESSORIES-VERY-NICE-SHAPE-/122220290230?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SNAP-ON-MT2500-DIAGNOSTIC-SCANNER-W-ACCESSORIES-VERY-NICE-SHAPE-/122220290230?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368)

Also is the scanner good for anything else? 200 bucks seems pretty steep for just adjusting the fuel sync.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: chris on November 15, 2016, 05:27:49 PM
Nevermind.  I went ahead and ordered it with the 13A key. I've already spent so much time and money on the truck whats another $220 to do the job right. Would like to know what are some things I could do with it still. I figure i'll do the fuel sync and adjust for larger tires.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: Richie on November 15, 2016, 05:48:30 PM
 I've got a new Snapon Solus Edge, I'll have to hook it up to my Dakota to check out the fuel sync. Once I get everything to my new home in Georgia.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 15, 2016, 05:51:38 PM
yeah, those scanners do more than just set the sync on Dodges, alot more. they are made to work on all makes and models, though there are different series of cartridges for domestic brands vs imports.

But you can do better than that one.Don't necessarily jump on the 1st one.   As far as "yeah it has a cartridge that is the same year as my truck", I would look for one that goes newer because a newer one overlaps and covers everything the older one will, plus the newest year shown. for example the latest one I got from the auction came with 1992 cartridges which will cover my Dakota. BUT the 2001 cartridge that came with my original scanner (that I bought new for over $3k back in the day) does too...
the earliest computer controls for which they came out with a scanner actually came out in the 80s believe it or not; but as each year passed, new things developed, good ideas on paper that turned out to be bad ideas in practice became more known/ as the age and miles piled on, "pattern" or repeat" failures with each year and model started appearing and as updates for each new year came about, this new info was incorporated into the current year, that a cartridge made "for your year" may not have.
The particular scanner you highlighted,, does NOT have the personality key you will need for a Dodge, every that i have ever plugged into has wanted a k13/k13a (one supersedes the other) There is a "generic" mode that I think takes a k2, but it isn't very brand specific, you will not be able to do brand specific things in generic mode.
you can get the keys and every other component separately but to piece one together that way will wind up costing you more than getting a more complete kit.
Starting in 96 with OBD II you use the same adapter (that is where the personality key comes in) but prior to that there was a different one for Dodge/Chrysler than for Ford, a different one (actually 2 different ones depending on year) and to access ABS on Fords had yet a different cable end, etc.
They were designed for a shop that works on many makes and models, as opposed to needing the factory scanners for each brand, and each couple of years they come out with a whole new one,
The aftermarket ones don't quite have all the capability of a brand specific one (example; reprogramming the ones that can be) but for most common things you see on a daily basis they don't do too bad.

and unlike Useless Zone's "code reader" that only does just that, you can actually read what each sensor is telling the computer, which in alot of cases is the only way to tell whether the sensor is working as designed.  A code just gives you a direction, it does not necessarily tell you that a part is "bad". Bad connections, corrosion, broken wires, etc can throw a code just like a bad sensor. It does take some playing around and reading the book(s) that (hopefully) come with the machine.
Yeah, if this is gonna be a one shot deal the only thing you ever do with a scanner it wouldn't be a good buy. Find a buddy, buy him a case of beer or fast food burger combo, and call it good. but to go to a damn dealer just to set your sync setting (which takes less than 10 minutes once they try to nitpick and sell you a whole bunch of other work because they do not know the history of "your" truck)  will probably cost you at least $100.  most charge a min of an hour even for the simplest of things.
but once you have one, I think you will find it more useful than you thought it would be.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 15, 2016, 05:53:15 PM
You posted while I was typing. There is nothing you can do with that scanner regarding adjusting for tire size.
I was hoping you would see what I was saying before you went ahead and bought "that" one.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 15, 2016, 05:57:59 PM
and on my Durango.... close but not quite. took it for its maiden voyage and had to call my kid with a tow strap about 3 miles out, acted like it ran out of fuel, gotta put the fuel pressure test gauge on it and figure out what's up.... I know it has no codes at present...fired right up here a few times before we put the hood on it, went in and ate, did a few other things, helped my kid do a side job brakes on a POS Toyota (every Toyota is a POS, IMHO) and then went for a ride.... now cranks but no fire has spark and by listening to it crank, it has compression.... it pops and backfires thru the intake when it does anything.... 
fresh painted motor making for a bad ground maybe?


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on November 15, 2016, 06:50:30 PM
and on my Durango.... close but not quite. took it for its maiden voyage and had to call my kid with a tow strap about 3 miles out, acted like it ran out of fuel, gotta put the fuel pressure test gauge on it and figure out what's up.... I know it has no codes at present...fired right up here a few times before we put the hood on it, went in and ate, did a few other things, helped my kid do a side job brakes on a POS Toyota (every Toyota is a POS, IMHO) and then went for a ride.... now cranks but no fire has spark and by listening to it crank, it has compression.... it pops and backfires thru the intake when it does anything.... 
fresh painted motor making for a bad ground maybe?

Possible fuel pump relay or ASD?


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: Richie on November 16, 2016, 06:43:53 AM
Good coil? Bad Crank shaft sensor wont let it fire too.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 16, 2016, 08:33:55 AM
Well both of them are BRAND new. Both "Standard" brand
Distributor pickup too. I have so far checked for spark (good), codes (none) and fuel pressure. Spec is 49 +/-5, it has 48. It started right up at home, shut it off and restarted it 4-5 times since having it all together,
Took it out for maiden voyage and got about 2 miles and it died coming to a stop sign. Started right back up. Another 2 miles and it died again, not to restart.  This time I heard popping and crackling, like hot metal, while I waited for my son with the tow strap I looked under to see my brand new cat glowing red and the brand new muffler was blued like a rifle.
When it died it acted like it was running out of gas. It wouldn't rev, I never did get it to see 60.
Though I have the fuel pressure that I mentioned, w/o the gauge on it when I press the Schrader valve right after the couple second pump buzz when I first hit the key it just dribbles, no big whoosh like would be expected on a line charged with nearly 50psi...
Also when I do the pressure test and turn off the key it drops off 4-5 psi right away and another 4-5 within about 10 minutes. I am leaning towards a pump issue.
Oh yeah injectors were just sent off for flushing, testing and new screens within 1000miles just before the engine job.
 


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 16, 2016, 08:37:30 AM
Oh yeah when I got it running the 1st night it did die once while I was watching under the hood but restarted right back up, then it did set a code for momentary loss of crank signal but like I said it started right back and that code never did return even now.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 16, 2016, 05:09:51 PM
ok got it all figured out..... details later.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on November 16, 2016, 06:17:48 PM
Thats a weird issue...  A Red cat makes me think too much fuel or restricted cat, Which contradicts low fuel pressure.

Since you had your exhaust pipes open for an extended period of time, I will suggest replacing your upstream o2 sensor or at least swapping it with the rear o2 sensor.  I dont know what it is about o2 sensors being exposed to open air but it caused me to run rich with no CEL's when I did my shorty headers. Replacing it worked for member chris also in a recent topic/post after his rebuild.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 17, 2016, 08:21:41 AM
Hey Magnum, I  did replace them both along with the motor job at the same time as the cat, muffler and everything else.
How can they sit in a warehouse for who knows how long before someone buys it and installs it?


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on November 17, 2016, 07:46:13 PM
Hey Magnum, I  did replace them both along with the motor job at the same time as the cat, muffler and everything else.
How can they sit in a warehouse for who knows how long before someone buys it and installs it?

I have No idea, on how a new one can sit on a shelf for years and work great when installed vs one that has seen many miles and sits then is used again and fails. It boggles my mind.  But these used or "sitting and used" o2 sensors failing during a "motor/pre o2 sensor exhaust" upgrade issue has some evidence.   

You should be good with your o2 sensor since they are newer but I thought I'd throw that out there.



Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: chris on November 21, 2016, 03:14:08 PM
I have a "red brick" Snap on one. MT 2500, I think.  I know that the OTC Genisys will do it, as that is what we have at work, and I have had to use it to do that job a few times there.

I also know how expensive that Snap on scanner was in its day and the yearly updates to keep up with the new models were pretty salty as well.  It was a scanner that would "never" go out of date, but it has/ it can only be updated to be "current" until 2008 or 2009 at the newest. Now a days they can be had cheap.  I paid $3K+ for mine back in 2003,  something went wrong with it, the thumb wheel will scroll one way but is dead the other/  I bought a replacement at an auction over this past summer for $35, I didnt care what cables and cartridges came with it, I just wanted the "brick" itself.

I would like to get a Modis (I think that is their current machine) but it is still in the "too lofty for how much I'd use it" range. The good thing is that much of the hardware that fit the old red brick will work with these.
Back when the "red brick" was"the $#!T" When you would buy a brand new one, "newest and most up to date" was only current for a then 2 year old car, when I bought mine in 2003 the newest available at that time, was data relating to 2001 model year.
notice what I said above about "eyeballing" it where the engine sounded pretty good.... I was still at a minus-21. so close enough is not good enough. I think they (Mopar) give you an acceptable range of+/- 4.   

one thing about the OTC scanner vs the red brick;   with the brick, the command for "set sync" pretty easy to find, where as I had to do a bit more digging to find the command to do this within the OTC's program..... the OTC sees more geared toward GM, wile the Snap on seems easier for me to run tests on Mopar and Ford products.  imports? I won't touch, and wish I could find the red button to make them all disappear from US roads "poof"

Guess I got lucky. Hooked up my new scanner and was getting a sync signal or +6/7 consistent. A little off but not enough that I think it would be a big diff. Or am I wrong.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on November 21, 2016, 07:01:52 PM
I have a "red brick" Snap on one. MT 2500, I think.  I know that the OTC Genisys will do it, as that is what we have at work, and I have had to use it to do that job a few times there.

I also know how expensive that Snap on scanner was in its day and the yearly updates to keep up with the new models were pretty salty as well.  It was a scanner that would "never" go out of date, but it has/ it can only be updated to be "current" until 2008 or 2009 at the newest. Now a days they can be had cheap.  I paid $3K+ for mine back in 2003,  something went wrong with it, the thumb wheel will scroll one way but is dead the other/  I bought a replacement at an auction over this past summer for $35, I didnt care what cables and cartridges came with it, I just wanted the "brick" itself.

I would like to get a Modis (I think that is their current machine) but it is still in the "too lofty for how much I'd use it" range. The good thing is that much of the hardware that fit the old red brick will work with these.
Back when the "red brick" was"the $#!T" When you would buy a brand new one, "newest and most up to date" was only current for a then 2 year old car, when I bought mine in 2003 the newest available at that time, was data relating to 2001 model year.
notice what I said above about "eyeballing" it where the engine sounded pretty good.... I was still at a minus-21. so close enough is not good enough. I think they (Mopar) give you an acceptable range of+/- 4.   

one thing about the OTC scanner vs the red brick;   with the brick, the command for "set sync" pretty easy to find, where as I had to do a bit more digging to find the command to do this within the OTC's program..... the OTC sees more geared toward GM, wile the Snap on seems easier for me to run tests on Mopar and Ford products.  imports? I won't touch, and wish I could find the red button to make them all disappear from US roads "poof"

Guess I got lucky. Hooked up my new scanner and was getting a sync signal or +6/7 consistent. A little off but not enough that I think it would be a big diff. Or am I wrong.

Chris,  A sync of +3 to +4max would be more fitting for your setup.  But if your happy with it leave it at +6/7.

Here's a little guide on fuel sync:
Just in case anyone is wondering...

The definition of "Fuel Sync" on magnum motors with a stock camshaft is basically:
1:   +1 thru +8 is the fuel being released after the intake valve has started to open.

2:   Zero is the fuel being released while the intake valve is closed but getting ready to open.

3:   -1 thru -8 is the fuel being released while the intake valve is closing.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 22, 2016, 06:38:56 AM
The way that you describe #1 and #3 steps of sync, what you have stated for #2  would have to be "that split second that the intake valve is open to the max"


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on November 22, 2016, 06:54:15 PM
The way that you describe #1 and #3 steps of sync, what you have stated for #2  would have to be "that split second that the intake valve is open to the max"

#2 is suppose to be stock but not always "mine was +4 from the factory".  Fuel sync set at zero, the fuel hits the back of the valve and gets sucked in with the air "questionable atomization".

+1 is intake valve just starting to open, +8 is intake valve close to fully open.
-1 is intake valve is just starting to close, -8 is intake valve close to closing..  I would only recommend using negative values under Boost.

I should have mentioned this part before....  This only holds true for stock ratio valvetrain.

Now if you throw a larger cam or 1.7 rockers at this, you'll definitely want to be in the + range.  Because a stock pcm wont know you changed the cam profile, so fuel sync would have to be advanced a bit.  There's no calculator for it, you just have to play around and find your engines sweet spot.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 28, 2016, 08:37:23 AM
The saga continues..... it runs but it runs like absolute $#1t. I did drive it (very) briefly.   it came home on the end of a tow strap.  Code for #6 injector driver again, I sent the computer off for a rebuild before the engine overhaul for the same thing only that time it was on #4. I have another computer coming from a junkyard about 50 miles to the west.

One thing that REALLY baffles me.  It was running (I drove it that way apparently) and when it died and I got it home among other things it was 180* out..... how it got there and how I was able to drive it is beyond me. It sounded so good in the garage before I left on that maiden voyage, has started it and shut it off several times over a couple of days before I put the hood back on and took it out.

Having an engine that would run 180* out is something that I have heard a few times over the years from some who are now old timers, but never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself 1st hand.
And all the while trying to crank it over to get it to run again even at 180* out the red brick said that sync was "OK".... another oddity. I have since pulled the distributor and indexed it the right way  and as I started with above it runs but badly at the moment.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: chris on December 01, 2016, 04:57:16 PM
The saga continues..... it runs but it runs like absolute $#1t. I did drive it (very) briefly.   it came home on the end of a tow strap.  Code for #6 injector driver again, I sent the computer off for a rebuild before the engine overhaul for the same thing only that time it was on #4. I have another computer coming from a junkyard about 50 miles to the west.

One thing that REALLY baffles me.  It was running (I drove it that way apparently) and when it died and I got it home among other things it was 180* out..... how it got there and how I was able to drive it is beyond me. It sounded so good in the garage before I left on that maiden voyage, has started it and shut it off several times over a couple of days before I put the hood back on and took it out.

Having an engine that would run 180* out is something that I have heard a few times over the years from some who are now old timers, but never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself 1st hand.
And all the while trying to crank it over to get it to run again even at 180* out the red brick said that sync was "OK".... another oddity. I have since pulled the distributor and indexed it the right way  and as I started with above it runs but badly at the moment.

Have you got it running proper yet? If so what was wrong?


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on December 01, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
computer spitting out more codes for injector drivers.... injectors and wiring verified working as designed. computer is fried. ongoing part of original issue I started fighting from before the rebuild. I sent the computer in for a rebuild before the engine got yanked and it ran good for a little bit before i pulled the engine  and again after it was back in but then it flipped out and went crazy again... verified crank and cam sensors and injector operation, fuel pressure, wiring and more. are ok. cleaned all grounds shiney and added some redundant grounds for good measure.  computers (original one and one I picked up from the boneyard) on their way back to the computer repair place. hopefully they honor their lifetime warranty on the original one and can reprogram the junkyard one to work with my CTM and my SKIM (chipped key) like the original one "used to".

replacement one allows it to start and quit, repeatedly. "SECURITY" light comes on and code set for "Incompatible SKIM" so it needs to be reprogrammed even though it came from an identical 01 Durango with a 5.9....


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on December 01, 2016, 07:04:49 PM


replacement one allows it to start and quit, repeatedly. "SECURITY" light comes on and code set for "Incompatible SKIM" so it needs to be reprogrammed even though it came from an identical 01 Durango with a 5.9....

Yea SKIM codes have to match, its a security feature for the security feature.  Kind of goofy but makes sense.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on December 02, 2016, 01:44:27 AM


replacement one allows it to start and quit, repeatedly. "SECURITY" light comes on and code set for "Incompatible SKIM" so it needs to be reprogrammed even though it came from an identical 01 Durango with a 5.9....

Yea SKIM codes have to match, its a security feature for the security feature.  Kind of goofy but makes sense.

people ask me occasionally why I don't buy newer vehicles.... this is a 2001 and the electrical/electronics are driving me crazy enough.  Newer is even worse.  With my 92 Dakota I have a computer on there that came from my '93 Dakota. Runs fine, doesnt know the difference. I could put a computer on there from a van and it would not know the difference, would run just the same. and would not care what the VIN of the donor was....  Now a days there is only one computer in the world that will run a given vehicle without having to pay someone else and wait on them or you have a worthless yard ornament.  Ridiculous. Did I say I hate electrical/electronics?


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on December 07, 2016, 01:52:37 PM
some news; the computer repair place called me today, they have both my computers (supposedly) ready and will be shipped back today.  The junkyard one is programmed to my VIN and SKIM (they didn't specify anything else with that one)

and my original one is repaired again, I guess they found some loose (solder joints to the board) injector drivers besides the one replaced last time, and the PROM that was supposedly fixed for that issue before was loose again.   I have talked to these guys a few times now since I determined that the computer had to be my issue and they are real quick to say that "the tech that worked on your unit originally, no longer works here"  that one was N/C because this company offers a life time warranty on computers that they repair/program.
I am still kind of leery of my original one because this is twice now that it has given me trouble. so IDK if I should trust that one or keep that one as the backup. that was mostly why I found a different one in a junkyard.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on December 07, 2016, 06:36:18 PM
I would keep the original as a spare if the SKIM matches on the bone yard pcm, use that one.  Bench test vs. real world is completely different when it comes to bumps, bouncing and vibration the pcm goes through in the real world.

What company are you dealing with?


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on December 08, 2016, 08:25:31 AM
SIA electronics in southern Illinois. Down near DuQuoin.

With all of the issues and grief  that the brain on this thing has caused me, and the fact that I now know that I can't just plop a junkyard unit into it w/o additional grief,  I was hoping that  in the end that they were able to get them both going as I plan on having this Durango until it rusts into the ground.

Having said that, I had figured on an overhaul of the engine from day 1 of buying it, just so happened that among the electrical issues it made for a convenient time to do it.
I just hope that with it going pig rich on me so soon after dropping the new engine in, that it didn't wash out the oil on the cylinder walls and. cause me problems with the new one. In the old days I have heard of more than one stuck float that caused such issues....... with the computer driving it full rich that would be about the same thing. 


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on December 08, 2016, 07:42:59 PM
SIA electronics in southern Illinois. Down near DuQuoin.

With all of the issues and grief  that the brain on this thing has caused me, and the fact that I now know that I can't just plop a junkyard unit into it w/o additional grief,  I was hoping that  in the end that they were able to get them both going as I plan on having this Durango until it rusts into the ground.

Having said that, I had figured on an overhaul of the engine from day 1 of buying it, just so happened that among the electrical issues it made for a convenient time to do it.
I just hope that with it going pig rich on me so soon after dropping the new engine in, that it didn't wash out the oil on the cylinder walls and. cause me problems with the new one. In the old days I have heard of more than one stuck float that caused such issues....... with the computer driving it full rich that would be about the same thing. 

Maybe pull the plugs and spray a little "Kroil" in each cylinder before startup. 


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on June 29, 2019, 04:13:01 PM
wow didn't think it had been THAT long,,,,, I thought I'd updated this thing more right after this... guess not
 got it going again once home, cat clogged solid, (it was brand freaking NEW)  hooked up scanner, and instead of having 3-ish mS  injector on time readings it had 17. some mS readings.....(yeah you read that right)
   drained  break in oil to change out,  and got a slurry of silver out with the oil that I have never seen on a 1st oil change.... truck has been garage ornament since, I remember reading some other posts on here at the time,  someone (I forget who) that had had theirs listed for sale, telling me that he had gone thru 4 computers before he got a good one....  tired of seeing this thing sit, tired of airing up the tires as it sits,  my 92 Dakota went away (and I saved its engine to dump in here just to get it mobile, even though that was just a 318, this is a 360 truck) Wrangler also went away. 

would have been happy to see this thing move again (besides get the wife to quit nagging me about it and constantly "reminding" me about it-- she absolutely LOVED this thing when she was driving it)   plans were to stab that 226K mile 318 in there as the engine is still very strong, quiet and not an oil burner, plan was to stick this in there and get the Durango mobile at least, while I pull the rebuilt 360 out and put it back on the stand, see if I can figure out what damage was done washing it down with that amount of gas while she drove it again. then fix if possible and put back in.  Or go thru the original engine and swap that in when I get it done up....

but lately I have been seeing a claimed 136k mile 360 out of an '00 (mine is '01) on CL,  hauled in a load of scrap this morning/ and had a guy drive out from Detroit after seeing a CL ad that I had posted for a set of 70s 340/360 heads that I have sitting here collecting dust.... after he left back for Detroit,  I headed for Indiana and picked up this engine.... what I got for those heads and for scrap this morning combined, paid for this one....

it has over 100K less on it than my Durango body does.  Though I have always been a huge fan of 318s, I have a mental issue putting in something smaller than what it came with....  though I have done just that in carb'd applications, more than once.  The price on this one was right, can't find one in a JY for what I paid. even with ALOT more miles.

this is southern truck, only been thru 2 Chicago winters, last of which was 4 years ago.    so even with such high miles, still worth putting an engine into/ the trans in it,  has as many miles on a fresh rebuild as that engine that is in it now, does.....   a total of about 6, half of those miles in "neutral" on the back end of a tow strap. and I have another (fresh) spare trans here, besides.

I have brand new EQ heads on the motor in the truck now,  going to put this newly acquired engine on a stand, and regasket everything while access is best. and look it over good.   thinking of putting those brand new heads from the engine that is in it, on here "just because".... hoping that the overfueling didn't damage them, after having read the reposted-from-the-dead  article about the 360 that Hughes and Westech figured out and re-rebuilt.....

have a set of 1.7 roller rockers here (and pushrods) that I want to put onto this engine, once its in and running and "debugged"  and a set of brand new unknown brand, stainless shorty headers here taht I also got ata  too good to pass on price. but not until.... well might put headers on with install but not yet the 1.7 rockers. I want it running good "stock" 1st, because if there is a problem I want to solve it while all is "stock" so that I don't add other possible causes to the mix.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on June 29, 2019, 04:38:58 PM
Good plan on waiting on the 1.7's, plus you'll get to feel the difference with the upgrade.

I've seen the slurry before in a motor I rebuilt back in 2003ish.  I used Borowski Racing in Joliet, I know they do work for Beglars too.  They machined my block and heads but the parts never seen the wash tank!  I put a 140 miles on the motor and checked the oil and it looked like it had a large amount of glitter in it.  I did a compression test and it was perfect.  I changed the oil and ran it 400 more miles and it had very little glitter in the pan. On the 3rd oil change it came out clean.  I put another 100k on the car with zero motor issues. 

I'd say change the oil and run it and change it again to see if it clears up since you have a spare motor waiting.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on July 01, 2019, 02:48:24 PM
naaah/  plan for now is to regasket this latest CL find, inspect everything as well as I can in that process, probably pull my brand new EQ heads off the engine that's sitting in there now,  if I don't find anything goofy when I pull this pan,  drop this one in there, get it going, and then pull the pan off the one sitting in there at the moment and see what I can see.
so far the one I got 2 days ago looks good, other than oil was black as tar (came out alright, no lumps or chunks)   tops of heads and lifter valley clean, can tell it has never been opened up before..... want to use the new heads because the springs are also new and not fatigued yet for when I put the 1.7s on.... and I spent the money on them already anyhow.
this thing is gonna die with us anyways.... wife likes it too much to do anything otherwise   and being from the South it has extremely minimal salt damage.....
this motor has 136k on it.... one in between fenders has 6 miles, original one has 258K.....  as long as this one passes inspection it should last us another 100k anyhow....
I also still have the 318 on another engine stand that was in my 92 club cab, 226k miles but the last 62k of that was mine.... and I know the history on that one....  not sure what will become of that one yet. I now have 3, 360s and 3, 318s.    2 318s are completely apart, 2, 360 are part way apart and the 3rd one will be again, within a few days. 



Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on July 06, 2019, 06:01:42 PM
ok anyone still hanging with me???  I got the CL 360 that I picked up last weekend on the stand, and down to a bare longblock, still need to pull the heads..... need my kid to come by and help me roll it over on the stand.....  have a new double roller "heavy duty" timing chain coming "just because".... will be here Mon.   was gonna pull the one off the turd that is within the fenders, but I plan to fix that engine and then I'd need to buy one then... pay now or pay later I guess.... if this engine is salvageable without starting all over again, I have a place for it, once I get the Durango rolling again.
picked up an aluminum plate "water jet" on feebay for $55--- $70 incl shipping. I thought Hughes were $80 for theirs?   They have doubled in price with Dorman gaskets etc, a little more yet for Fel Pro..... I vote for Fel Pro anyday over Dorman. I thought tehre were a few guys selling these things, there was only 1 listing when I was looking, his Ebay handle is "289 guy" (eeeek... a Ford guy) in case anyone needs one.

The intake that came off of this CL find, has a bit of pitting going on around the water ports, (where the T stat gets its water)  I have another (actually a few more beer barrel intakes) collecting dust around here, so I found one I liked better.... the T chain cover had the typical water leak around the ports behind the water pump, same story there.... T chain cover gasket was blown out "both sides" saw a "calcium stain" on passenger side/ surprised it wasnt showing on the block on both sides....  cover had a little pitting, on the gasket surface, not terrible/ but within a year it would be leaking again.... doing all that I can to avoid any leakage while this engine is on the stand.....
so for now, I stole the chain cover off the engine within the fenderwells.... 
I got the outsides of the block all descaled, wire wheeled and ready for some paint/ and the oilpan that came from that engine too. (this, the one I brought home a week ago)

NOW FOR THE BAD NEWS.....
Partly because "it needs to be done anyways"/"should have been done long ago" partly because I'm stuck here today (wife took her Mom to a damn "baby shower", yuck/ I had other plans that got blown out of the water by this) I got the engine that I rebuilt 2-1/2 years ago that "went bad" pulled down to a shortblock today..... haven't pulled the short block out yet.
As I was pulling it apart, the 1st sign of distress was a bent #4 exhaust valve pushrod when I pulled the intake.  next the valve covers came off, #4 exh valve "stuck"....
once I got the heads off I discovered a badly bent valve.  I can see where it kissed the piston too....
Cylinders look good, about 1/2 of crosshatch still left. want to get it on a stand and check the bearings....I think my "slurry" was pounding out of at least 1 set of rod bearings..... want to check #4 rod for being (possibly) bent.....   

On 5 of the cylinders (including #4) they are black as coal/ can tell they were pig rich.... the other 3 look like I put the heads on and took them right back off, without trying to ever run the engine.   #1,2,3 are the "clean" cylinders.....  all cylinder walls look the same, little stain at top of ring travel, #4 that stain is black ("rich") the the rest are a bit rusty looking.... the eingine hasn't even been turned over with a bar in 2-1/2 years since it all went to He11.... but truck has been sitting inside my garage all this time.
at this point IDK if the exh valve just "stuck" and then hung long enough for the piston to meet it but that would be mu guess....
I remember that article where someone else had a problem with these heads and the giudes, it was linked here... These are "EQ" heads, the heads in that article were "Iron Ram" heads which are Hughes' own name for the same heads, but what IDK is if the ones from that article were "as shipped" or if Hughes had "massaged" them before being sold....

Mine had a 1 yr warranty, if it is a guide issue then it "would have been" warranteeable, but it isn't now, because I waited too long to investigate///  because I was PO'd at it, and we had enough transportation to go around at the time..... so I let it sit.




Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on July 06, 2019, 06:43:19 PM
I wouldn't chance using those EQ heads again.  Slap those 360 heads you got from me on there and you should be safe.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on July 07, 2019, 03:26:45 AM
I want to take the EQ's to the machine shop and see what they say, see if they see a guide issue or what.  let them tell me what they see.... It'll cost me a bit for that, but I already have $700 in them.... a lot of money to me. but I don't want them if they are going to do this again. I went back and re read that article from Hot rod that has been linked here and different circumstances (this thing is completely stock, that truck wasn't) but the problem within the heads sounds very much the same.

after this catastrpohe what ever heads go back onto that thing will go thru the machine shop 1st...... if these heads wind up being FUBAR, then yes those particular heads that you speak of,  will certanly be going in for a checkup next.  but I feel a need to get some salvation out of what I spent on the EQs.


I have a total of 9 other Magnum heads here, besides the EQs....
the ones I got from you
the ones that came with this most recent engine
the ones from the original 5.9 that this Durango left the factory with (one of which still bolted to the block)
the ones on the 92 318 that came out of my most recent Dakota (that is still a complete ready to drop in good used engine)
and 1 more under the bench that was machine shop checked and "cleared" as a good crack free head



Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on July 08, 2019, 12:47:12 PM
INTERESTING....
we have an old automotive machine shop that has recently been reopened by the son of the owner of a machine shop that I know of about 20 miles from here. Decent kid but IDK how much experience he has..... we made  a trip to Houston a few years ago to check out that SAM (school of automotive machinists) that used to advertise constantly on the Velocity channel with all the car repair/ resto shows, strangely I have not seen any of their ads in some time..... I found out a few months later this kid was attending that school at the time that we were down there.....he is close to home and easier for me to access in the hour that I have between the time my workday ends and the machine shops close.... If his Dad or his uncle was here with him, I'd feel better about trying him out to see what he can do....  I know that he worked at his Dad's shop "for a while" but IDK to what extent.  (yeah Chris, this is Begler's I am talking about)  


but being that these are brand spanking new EQ heads that I am having problem with, I took a "long lunch" and took them to a machine shop right across the border in Indiana that I have used before, that has been around for quite a long time, and I feel better about their "experience level" This guy also has his son working there with him, but the difference is "with" him.... not 20 miles away.

So I get there and move their door stop/boulder to hold the door open so I can carry my heads in and the owner's son comes right over to help me, he grabbed 1 head out of my truck while I carried in the other.  "punch line coming"...  before I had a chance to say much of anything, he said "lemmee guess..... you bought these fully assembled out of the box and bolted them on your motor and you have problems with valves sticking, and they are Mopar Magnum heads, right"?    HUH? WHAT?   exactly what I have. nailed it on the head without me saying a word....  
"yeah I have seen this before"  
seems another shop job that he has had was a 318 that was headed for a 60-something Dart that they were brought to rebuild and soup up a bit.  He thought this would be the ideal perfect scenario. Assembled, no sunk seats or worn guides, or warpage, would save a whole bunch of time in the build. the customer apparently left it up to them to pick the parts after telling the machine shop their desires/ expectations of the build....
He had this customer's engine on their dyno, and during the 2000 RPM cam break in time, he experienced the same thing with that engine.... bent the pushrod and at least 1 valve, somehow ruined that new cam and something else (I forget what it was), and he'd already told the customer to expect the engine within a week..... well no more with the backtracking and re-disassembly it was longer than that...    and this is quite the small town Mom and pop style business.... not "big time" in the least.... but they know what they are doing.


so once I get them back, I will try them again, this guy said he knew exactly what he would have to do to fix them.  and yeah Chris, those heads I got from you went to the machine shop right alongside the EQ's "just in case".....  I used to have a set of the 1st step over stock MP valvesprings that were recommended for what most call the "sausage" cam but they are currently MIA (I have a brand new "sausage" cam here as well in my stash I know exactly where that is)  so worst case I am going to transfer those over to your old heads if these wind up FUBAR'd.....  


and hey... I like classic rock as well as the next guy, this machinist's name ie Neil Young.... that's weird.... Ive talked to him about that before when I had been there..... Im a big time Crosby Stills Nash and Young fan, as well as Neil with crazy horse.....


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on July 08, 2019, 05:04:35 PM
Hey Don,  Those parts you left out for me worked perfect.  I don't need the retainer spine or bolts if you want those back.  I hope you found the 30 presents I left behind your grill...


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on July 10, 2019, 12:44:34 PM
INTERESTING/  I just searched on Moparts and found a long thread there about sticking valves and ruined engines using these same heads and the thread was dated right around the time I originally assembled this engine.  I posted a "novel" of a history on another Mopar site last nite (a site that I used to spend a lot of time on, but not in a year or so) to ask if anyone else had ever seen or heard of such issues....  but the thread on Moparts was a "dead ringer" for what I experienced.... and within a few weeks of when I encountered it back in 2016...  stories of metal in the pan, ruined cams, ruined engines the whole shebang.....    anyone here have a similar experience with these heads?


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on July 11, 2019, 12:05:19 PM
update.... gonna need all 16 guides reamed, all are too tight. at least 1 new valve, plus he wants to re replace the guide seals even though these heads have no more than 3 hours of total run time since taken out of the box.... =guide seals aren't all that much $ overall vs the cost of a "valve job" so I guess....   he says "he won't put used seals back on " even with that little run time"... used is used..... looks like $200+ parts, will have back in 1 to 2 weeks.... he did say that it didn't tear out the guide like the last set of these heads they had. I guess the casting was FUBAR on that one...  essentially needs to go thru all the motions of a std valve job....


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on July 12, 2019, 04:21:46 AM
HELLO THERE anyone out there?
Would sticky valves somehow give the computer reason to hold the injectors open like I was getting just at the end of when I last ran this thing?


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on July 12, 2019, 03:36:56 PM
HELLO THERE anyone out there?
Would sticky valves somehow give the computer reason to hold the injectors open like I was getting just at the end of when I last ran this thing?

Yes. It could cause the upstream o2 sensors to detect a lean condition which would cause the the fuel output to increase.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on July 27, 2019, 08:04:52 AM
Well I got the EQ heads back, they magnafluxed them, (I wouldn't have thought that to be necessary being brand new heads) and wound up having to replace 1 valve, some of what he had to say about Mopar heads (even stock original ones) surprised me. He has had them with 30k, clean "old man's " car with egg shaped seats, he said that they can't cast a truly round seat to save their lives. 
With these particular heads he has had them with hundreds of thousands of miles on them and all carboned up or rusty from sitting that he didn't have to beat on as much as he had to pound on the valves in this set of heads to get the valves to come out. He had to dress all of the intake seats for out of round, and ream/ hone all of the guides to gain clearance so that this problem won't repeat itself, he touched up all of the seats to make sure they were still centered in relation to the guides once he had them clearance right, and hand lapped em all in. So hopefully I won't see this again.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on July 27, 2019, 05:11:50 PM
Thats a ton of work on a new head!


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on July 28, 2019, 03:51:25 AM
yeah/ that's what I thought too.... they are mounted now on this CL shortblock that's going in there.... new timing chain on, longblock painted, stock (for now) rocker arms mounted, gonna get a case of oil and dump some in while on the stand, I have a hex shaft to run the oil pump with a drill, gonna hook up my remote gauge and run the oil pump and make sure the oil pressure is alright while its on the stand.....   
The longer this goes on, the more posts (in general) that I see all over online about "being expected to" take brand new heads in to a machine shop for a going over, whether they be Indy or Edelbrock or whoever, before plopping them on and bolting them down....sounds like an expected "normal" that I sure wasn't expecting to hear...  I thought that having a problem free install and not having to worry about any "issues" was a main reason for buying new heads in the 1st place...... new heads are not cheap.   In the future if I gotta go thru them anyway I think I will opt for the "bare" versions...... this has me worried about the heads we bought for the kid's Ramcharger


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on July 28, 2019, 12:12:34 PM
Glad things are going in the right direction for you.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on August 21, 2019, 04:22:21 PM
getting closer, 2nd replacement engine now in..... installed as a longblock, gotta install manifolds, front accessories, core support, radiator and condenser then move onto the lift (and out of the pond of ATF) for the underneath stuff.....


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on August 21, 2019, 04:33:18 PM
getting closer, 2nd replacement engine now in..... installed as a longblock, gotta install manifolds, front accessories, core support, radiator and condenser then move onto the lift (and out of the pond of ATF) for the underneath stuff.....

I wish I would of done that.  I ended up lifting the engine and trans together by the bolt holes in the front and back of the heads, it worked out great.  I contacted edelbrock about using that and they said it wouldn't be a problem.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on August 22, 2019, 02:46:29 AM
That's what I used, a bolt hole on the pass side back head and one on the driver's side front. Couldn't quite get this one to hang right, kept adjusting chain length, which hole in heads that I hooked chain, etc. I did keep the chain short and kinda tight, as I did this one with the hood still on.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on September 21, 2019, 12:10:23 PM
it IS up and running yet again, but still having issues running pig rich.....  running w/o a cat til I get things ironed out. looks like pile/comedy of errors stacking up.... many beyond my control and unknown to me....  I was SO careful putting this thing together initially, walking on eggshells to avoid same issues but still not out of woods yet buy in too deep $$$ to bail.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on September 21, 2019, 06:10:43 PM
Did you replace the upstream o2 sensor?


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on September 23, 2019, 10:52:21 AM
More than once


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on October 19, 2019, 06:00:06 PM
OK... maybe some real  progress, finally.... been dibbling and dabbling with this thing---- besides my son getting married last weekend, and then leaving with my wife,  for the last campout of the year the next day, (finally) getting some OT at work and just "being a homeowner"/ plus a side job or 2, have left me with not as much "work on my own stuff" time, lately...
and then, I just had to take a long break from this thing, because of disasters out of my control, at every turn....  many parts  that were replaced "might as well" along with an engine replacement, for (hopefully) "PM" purposes/ and hopes for problem free fresh motor install,  it has been far from that.

I actually found a twin to this truck on CL today, with 1/3 the miles that mine has on it that I considered checking out /but it has something that my Durango doesn't..... rust. so I figured I'd take "1 more look at this one" before I called that seller. my wife likes this truck too much grrrrr.

then, there is the mental block that goes along with "Naaawww, can't be.... that's new and that's new and THAT'S new too.... some things more than once, during this ordeal....  having a hard time (in my head) going back to "ground zero" basics,  in trying to figure this mess out, the "can't be/that's a new part" at every turn, has been a roadblock to figuring this thing out properly... bear with me, my mind is going nuts.... many parts replaced more than once. hope someone is staying along with me on this ordeal. posting here mostly for a record of what I did that I can look back on in the future if it should be necessary....   but input from others is definitely welcomed and expected.  Cmon guys, this forum is definitely NOT "read only". 

added an extra leaf to each side on my 96 Dakota 4wd, needs tires anyways// found a "clearance deal" on a set of new tires real close to same size as is stock on the Durango,  that are cheaper than size that is on the Dakota now, (which are "stock size" for it)  so I robbed the tires/wheels from the Durango, bolted them onto the Dakota, to make sure they'd clear, and not rub.... Durango looks funny with the 235/75R15 on it, from the Dakota....  the 265/70R16s from the Durango fit the other truck just fine, but are flat spotted and just plain LOUD.....  so cant wait for my new tires ordered for the Dakota to get here.... then the 16s go back on the Durango.... want new ones there too, once it's back on the road. the Dakota is my 70 mile a day daily driver at this point. plus trailer puller, camping truck, pretty much everything.  my 99 V6 Dakota just says "help me," when I try to make it do real work..... wife is driving that one, at the moment.

Beating my brain, trying to figure WTF could be my issue on the Durango...just about everything imaginable has been tried, checked, replaced in trying to get this thing back mobile again. 
being everything that has been done, it has to be something that I have already replaced.
 finally spent a couple of hours on it again today.  I am pretty much convinced that my issue has to be either the computer (IDK that I trust the place that worked on both my original one or the junkyard sourced one, at this point)  or the injectors have a problem--- even though they, too, were sent in and rebuilt/flushed/ tested.... at the time I had that done, there were 1 or 2 that they found had a problem, I had another set of (used)  identical injectors here from another engine, I took a few in and they claimed to have gotten me a complete set of equal flowing, clean injectors that ohm out equally too.....  gotta try something at this point.
When I started messing with it today I pulled the dipstick and found the oil over full (it was right at the full mark when engine was dropped in) and it seemed "gassy" so I changed it again... less than 3 hours idle time/25 miles on what was in there..... but oil's relatively cheap, compared to another engine..... as I changed it it came out looking just fine, and unlike that complete rebuilt engine I had in there, NO slurry of bearing material.... so far so good... when hot though, bigger swing in pressure hot vs cold than I like to see... but plenty  of oil pressure even at that..... talking factory oil gauge, and reading thru scanner, its intrepretation of oil pressure voltage to pressure equivalents, this vehicle will be getting aux gauges "T"'d into the engine, along with factory sending units... just gotta figure out a good mounting spot inside. 

I have not yet put the "repaired" original computer back into this thing, since this engine has been in the truck, running on the reprogrammed junkyard sourced computer so far... it had been back twice to the repair facility, upon sending it back to me the 2nd time they admitted finding same issue with it that time as they supposedly "fixed" the 1st time. was all ready to buy another from a different source, but can't get anyone to vouch for this other outfit, either good or bad...

so today, I decided to swap out the injector rail for another rail that I have here, that is loaded with 4.7 shower heads instead of what was "stock" and original from this engine/body combo. and I replaced upstream O2 "again" at same time. I have been told that 4.7 ones are actually "richer" than the stock 360 ones of the same year. I also have a fresh set of reman 4.7 ones here in a can on the shelf in the garage besides, never been run since I recieved them. 

   I recently ordered 2 upstream (1 for spare) and 1 downstream O2 "NTK brand, same as OEM" from Rock auto for this thing. so far so good... the O2 that I took out was filthy black and heavy carbon deposits from running so bloody rich.... not saying it was "bad" but it went in the garbage. at least it came out easy. still not running a cat (though I have another waiting here brand new in the box, another Magnaflow/ just like the one that melted, with the new engine)  not going in until I verify everything is as it should be. have a "cheat" in place for the downstream O2 to keep the CEL off in the meantime.

started and ran great in the driveway today,  as it has each time that it had done since the 1st engine went in... watched the parameters as I let it warm up, fuel trims were a bit high, mostly negative, short term not terrible, long term climbing about 2x higher than short term ever got to, weird. Injector pulse width ("on-time") much better than it was in much earlier posts, closer to "expected" than it had been. That was somewhat better with this engine (and the reworked fresh brand new heads) with the original injectors, but still pig rich to a point of burning eyes... I dont remember really paying attention to fuel trim with either the original engine or the rebuilt replacement that I had in there so can't compare that like I can with pulse width.... that one just stuck out so much before, being as far out of range as it had been with that rebuilt engine. IDK if the plugged exhaust may have had something to do with that, at the time?  fuel trims were both negative, as they had been when I 1st got it running on this engine, but as I said I cant remember "how" negative they had been.  definitely better than with original engine and that plugged cat.  Pulse width idling hot,  was 4.1-4.2... way better than the 17.some that it was while I had the 1st engine in, upon plugging the cat.... same set of injectors were on it then, as I just removed from the engine today. Just goes to prove that just because they had been "gone thru" that don't mean a part is good.
I did have a slight vac leak where the PCV hose connects to both the intake and the PCV itself/ besides having collapsed in between... a new hose at that.... and the junction between the brake booster hose and the intake also.... putting hose clamps on those, only slightly helped the fuel trim, O2 switching, and injector pulse width, also sprayed everywhere I could with gumout spray looking for any other vac leaks.....

  I took it for a ride with the other fuel rail and the 4.7 injectors in place, actually the 1st test drive since some time while the original engine was still in place, (and quite a while before the "end" of that engine's life) that it ran as good as it did today.  With the other injectors on,  I actually watched the gas gauge fall and "instant MPG" on the overhead console, was in the 4 to 5 MPG range with a best of 6 or so. thatw as cruising at 60 or less MPH, steady.  I know that can't be totally trusted, but it is an indicator. with these injectors in place that was much improved.  so far even with no cat, no more burning eyes and exhaust coming out of tailpipe while idling nowhere near as "hot" on my hand, when I held it near the tail exit. upon coming back from test drive (about 5-6 miles)  pulse width at idle was in the mid to high 3.some millisecond range and both long and short term fuel trim were both closer to zero.

gonna try again tomorrow, may have the wife drive it next time, so I can pay better attn. to scanner while it is on the road.... definitely time to get power washer out and clean the layer of dirt and dust from sitting, off of it.... luckily I live in the country, license plates are 3 years expired, waiting to pay to renew them, til I'm past the issues, and ready to start daily driving it again.... luckily not many cops near home. (different story)   put the right tires back onto it, and see what it does.




Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on October 19, 2019, 06:54:40 PM
A couple friends have used https://www.solopcms.com/blog/dodge-pcm-reflash/ without issues for PCM work. 

Maybe try adding temporary grounds from battery to body to engine and pcm to engine. Or pull and flip the under hood fuse box to check for corrosion.  Have you tried those 4.7 injectors you got from me?  Those were a known good set but they sat a while.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on October 20, 2019, 03:57:53 AM
Yup  I know that I put up a long winding post but mentioned that I put in a set of 4.7 injectors above, those would have been your old ones. I do have another set of fresh Reman ones that I got via eBay a while ago, still in the wrappers.
With that junkyard sourced computer, it came from that yard in streator, they were the only ones around that had a 5.9 powered 01 at the time, was supposed to be a good running truck that was wrecked/ I sent that unit to the computer repair place that I had used with the instructions to ONLY reprogram it to match my Vin and skim unit, it came back with the same spot on the case hole sawed out and siliconed back in, just like the original one that I had sent them, so they were inside of that unit as well. I didn't think that they had to open them up just to reprogram them? Is the chip that   holds the programmed info, a 1 time use, chip? Otherwise idk why they would have had to go inside.  They were inside the original one twice. I have a lifetime warranty on them but idk if I trust them or not. Though they profusely apologized for the problems with the original one at the time,  made no secret that the tech who originally worked on my original one no longer works there, or so they claimed.
I did call down there while I was dropping the 2nd engine in and asked them some questions about"what if" there was still a problem with the computer that would have caused the problems that I had to cause the problems with that 1st replacement engine, and they said that if I wanted to send it back to them they would put it on their simulator and check it out again for me they did give me a lifetime warranty on them at the time. . When I had them done originally they. said that they had a vehicle out back that they ran it on before they sent them back for testing. If I can't run any other computer that isn't programmed to my Vin on my vehicle how could they? To me that means that this pita could be programmed out of the computer. Id rather have gotten it back like that if possible. I asked about their test vehicle and the guy said that it blew up on them that they don't have it no more.
When I last called them I had to call back a couple of times, when I told them that I was working on a Dodge, they said I had to call when 1 particular guy was around, he does all of the Dodge stuff.

About the way that this place accesses the inside of the computer, by hole sawing the case apart, I have seen other computers with the same treatment, is that the only way of opening them up for repair once they are initially sealed at the factory when new? It seems like a hack job way of getting inside. If that chip is Known for solder joints coming loose I would think that any solder joints with in would be just as vulnerable and they'd want to inspect them all right?
I had mentioned their name in a much earlier post in this thread.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on October 20, 2019, 03:48:11 PM
computer repair place that I had used with the instructions to ONLY reprogram it to match my Vin and skim unit, it came back with the same spot on the case hole sawed out and siliconed back in, just like the original one that I had sent them, so they were inside of that unit as well. I didn't think that they had to open them up just to reprogram them? Is the chip that   holds the programmed info, a 1 time use, chip?.

No, its the cheap and hack way of taking it apart.  The reman PCM I got from SOLOPCM's wasnt drilled at all.  It can be disassembled, they probably don't want their techs handling the board w/o protection around it. All prom chips that are undamaged can be reprogrammed or rewritten over, if they have technology to do it.  The main thing I worry about is they are sawing the metal cover of the PCM, how do you or they know they got all the debris and shards out, one tiny conductive shard could get caught in a prom chip and cause all sorts of issues. 

  If I can't run any other computer that isn't programmed to my Vin on my vehicle how could they? To me that means that this pita could be programmed out of the computer

You can run a PCM without issue without a VIN matching your truck as long as the PCM is that type for that truck.  It will run fine but when you want to hook up a MT2500 or similar tool up to it you will get Bus errors when changing things like fuel sync and other diagnostic tests will just fail.



Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on October 21, 2019, 07:25:21 AM
Hmm. Took it for another ride in the country last night, definitely much better. Want to be reasonably sure all is good with it before I spend the money on renewing the 3 year past due, expired license plates.
I had similar concerns about collateral damage within the computer as you mentioned. I have seen other ecm's on various cars drilled and the disc that was hole sawed out, siliconed back in, before.
At this point it looks like the root causes of all of my headaches with this thing  we're both the result of parts of the initial job that other people had a hand in.
1. The sticky valves in the brand new heads that I dropped on out of the box, and
2. The injectors that I had rebuilt we're not done right. And I still have a doubtful cloud hanging over this thing with the computer. I left it sit a couple of weeks after the initial run in with the 2nd engine when I saw how pig Rich it was running to look back at all I had done to this thing, and realized that it had to be something that didn't change from the 1st engine to the 2nd one, but there was nothing untouched from the original engine to the 1st replacement, but alot of parts like sensors and such that got moved from the 1st engine to the 2nd one.
Better than sitting nearly 3 years like it did between the original engine swap and the 2nd.
I'm not an electronics guy,  but being as how the problems that wound up making the job go bad the 1st time, wound up being caused by things that I didn't have  a hand in. And people ask me all the time why I refuse to hire out any more than I absolutely have to. I'd rather screw something up myself a couple of times than to be screwed by someone else.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on October 21, 2019, 07:32:46 AM
Wondering if I should tempt fate and try the original (repaired 2x) computer on this thing or whether to use it as a core and get one from a different outfit. I do need to get ahold of a factory Mopar drb scanner to relearn the limits on the HVAC door actuators so that I can get rid of the flashing light on the AC button and so the computer will allow the compressor clutch to engage and I can then charge the AC. My buddy who works at a dealership says that they don't even have a drb any more, they are 2 diagnostic systems past them, but their current system has a "drb simulator mode" that he don't know if will do what I am after. Neither my MT2500 or my SOLUS scanners or the OTC Genisys from work can do it.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on October 21, 2019, 05:02:36 PM
Hmm. Took it for another ride in the country last night, definitely much better. Want to be reasonably sure all is good with it before I spend the money on renewing the 3 year past due, expired license plates.
I had similar concerns about collateral damage within the computer as you mentioned. I have seen other ecm's on various cars drilled and the disc that was hole sawed out, siliconed back in, before.
At this point it looks like the root causes of all of my headaches with this thing  we're both the result of parts of the initial job that other people had a hand in.
1. The sticky valves in the brand new heads that I dropped on out of the box, and
2. The injectors that I had rebuilt we're not done right. And I still have a doubtful cloud hanging over this thing with the computer. I left it sit a couple of weeks after the initial run in with the 2nd engine when I saw how pig Rich it was running to look back at all I had done to this thing, and realized that it had to be something that didn't change from the 1st engine to the 2nd one, but there was nothing untouched from the original engine to the 1st replacement, but alot of parts like sensors and such that got moved from the 1st engine to the 2nd one.
Better than sitting nearly 3 years like it did between the original engine swap and the 2nd.
I'm not an electronics guy,  but being as how the problems that wound up making the job go bad the 1st time, wound up being caused by things that I didn't have  a hand in. And people ask me all the time why I refuse to hire out any more than I absolutely have to. I'd rather screw something up myself a couple of times than to be screwed by someone else.


Amen to that!


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on October 23, 2019, 03:17:48 AM
Ordered some other stuff for this thing over the last couple of days
Energy suspension urethane front end bushings (already did the sway bar bushings and rack mount bushings in urethane a few weeks ago) a pillar pod since there ain't any other good places for a remote oil gauge or trans temp gauge) which are also coming, USA made auto meter mechanical versions... And back shocks from rock auto, Going back to Gabriel ultra like I had on it before. and debating on  ordering a set of HD rear leaf springs  to level it up, need about 1-1/2-2",  can't lower the torsion bars to level, or tires will rub, and I have the stock size on it, on the original wheels


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on October 23, 2019, 05:05:42 PM
I've had zero complaints while using Energy Suspension Parts.

Hows the truck running?


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on October 24, 2019, 12:40:01 PM
haven't taken it out since the weekend, kinda waiting for my new tires to get here (15") for the Dakota 4wd, as I "borrowed" the Durango's tires to test the size for fitment on the Dakota... and since I wasn't driving the Durango  I have left them on there for ~ a month.  Durango has 16" wheels, got same size coming for Dakota (1st 2 numbers in size-- 265/70) but in a 15" that will fit the Dakota's wheels/  which look silly on the Durango.....

Farm and fleet had a set on "clearance,"  "old" version of a current tire they sell.... have 3 sets that size all at different stores than the local one. Don't want to keep playing "musical tires" between the 2 trucks, cheaper than the stock 235/75s that were on it.....   also keep forgetting to grab a check for the DMV to get the plates renewed....  have the 96 and 99 Dakotas, so the wife isn't "out" of wheels, anyways, so don't have to be in a hurry.  plan to get those plates for it either tomorrow or Sat so I can take it out and drive it more w/o worry about that.....
want to take it and fill it up on gas....

I still have those 1.7 rocker arms and a brand new set of stainless shorty headers, that I have had for this thing for a while now... been wanting to make sure all is good now "stock," before I make changes to keep from adding confusion to the problems I have had. Im still debating getting a computer from someone else, for reasons I have talked about a few posts ago. working so far, but feel like I am on eggshells with the current one.





Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 11, 2019, 12:53:24 PM
well new plates are on, has insurance, filled up the gas tank for the 1st time in 3 years, (had put a 5 gallon canful in, a couple of times in that 3 years) they actually have a couple of places not real far away to get non ethanol gas again....   

also new rear leafs in, 4 new shocks, ALL new suspension bushings (except for rear sway bar bushings and links)  in and done, had to put a new battery in/ as the one I saved from my 92 Dakota wasn't as good as I remember it being, its sitting at an alignment shop now....  1st time its been away from home this long, and 1st time in 3 or 4 years it has had snow on it....alignment guy might have a few days as he is booked appointment wise til after Turkey day.... said if I left it, he could "squeeze it in" within a couple days.... if he gets a no show, etc, but with what I hear about this guy, and my experience with other local shops with an alignment rack, sounds like it's worth letting him have it a few days.
drove it again last nite to go get gas and try out the new suspension goodies,  plus let the new springs and the torsion bars settle so I could verify my measurements on torsion bar adjustment.... was pulling left but I had left side sitting 1/2" lower than right/ adjusted that left side height to match the right and pull went away..... but I know that the alignment isn't right because I had all the adjustment points apart yesterday with the bushing job....  had to burn out the lowers with a bottle torch, didn't look bad but definitely drives better with the new ones in.... upper bushings looked worse, dry rotted but also still mostly intact looking.. not  metal on metal, like the ones were earlier this year in both of my Dakotas before I replaced them

but again, drives noticeably better/ even with alignment all screwed up than before... no more feeling like the azz end is gonna come out from under, no more "wallowing".... been like that since I towed a Wrangler to southern IL and towed back a Bronco II for a neighbor about 4 years ago..... no more rear end sag..... does ride stiffer now, hope some of that goes away as the new springs and front end parts settle in.....

have been scouting CL "all over the place" and too many idiots wanting more $$ for rotted out junk than I paid for this one back in 2013..... some with even more miles on them than mine.... strange, I see newer versions (different body style Durangos, many with the Hemi) for lower asking price than the remaining ones like my 01.....  seems like more newer ones with engine issues being listed than ones like mine too.... especially 4.7 powered rigs.  Ill keep my 360, thanks.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on November 11, 2019, 05:42:49 PM
Im glad you got it going congrats!

they actually have a couple of places not real far away to get non ethanol gas again.... 

Where???



Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: donram360 on November 12, 2019, 08:34:28 AM
Casey's in Herscher would be closest that I know of to you. The one in crescent City also has it, which is right on my way to work.


Title: Re: well finally my Durango runs again....
Post by: magnumman on November 12, 2019, 04:28:48 PM
Casey's in Herscher would be closest that I know of to you. The one in crescent City also has it, which is right on my way to work.

The Caseys in Braceville use to do it but they only have 87 Octane.